Fanboy Battles : THE DARK KNIGHT VS BATMAN BEGINS

Bob: So it’s finally come to this. The moment we’ve been waiting for. The Dark Knight Rises this friday, and the wait has been extremely long. Since its inception, I’ve followed every tidbit about it. the casting, the story, the release date. I doubt I’ve been this crazy for a film since... forever.
Fellow film nerd and Nolan fan Mahek Ravia has also been following its production since he saw Batman racing into the horizon and the screen slam cutting to black at the end of The Dark Knight.

Mahek: Yes, that's right! I’ve been waiting eagerly for the birth of this new baby of Nolan. I can't believe it is finally here!

B: I’ve been waiting for this moment since TDK, man. I remember leaving the theater absolutely awed. But I had one teensy problem. 

M:  Problem? 

M: Come on! We are talking about the Batman masterpiece here. I haven’t felt in love with a film so much before this one.

B: In my opinion, the Dark Knight isn’t a Batman film. It’s a film with Batman as a character and everything revolves around him. Joker not only steals the show, but it was always his show to steal. the Dark Knight isn’t a Batman film.

M: Hmm.
I somewhat agree about Joker part. But that was not The Dark Knight as a whole. Yes, he ruled the film in a way, y’know?
When I first walked out of theater with my friends, everyone had only one name in their mouths, Heath Ledger! (May he rest in peace.) But after some re-watches, after slightly getting used to Joker’s enigmatic charisma, there were so many other things to notice in the film. And that made me realize how TDK is a Batman film without Batman not being as centered character in the movie as in Batman Begins. Batman was like a symbol in TDK.

B: Thing is, Batman isn’t a symbol in the comic books.

B: Sure, there have been more than one Batmen, but Batman IS Bruce Wayne. Batman is fighting a personal war. His war against crime is one that is rooted in his childhood memory of seeing his parents die. That’s how personal it is for him. And I know that makes him selfish, but he is selfish. That’s the very point of the character, not to mention an important part of his story arc. And I think Batman Begins pulls off this character wonderfully. 

B: In the first act, Nolan portrays Bruce Wayne as a selfish bastard. He tried to kill his parents’ killer. He did it out of want for revenge. Liam Neeson’s Henri Ducard tries to focus all this rage into Bruce’s quest for vengeance, and he succeeds in doing so. And the rest of the movie follows suit. Batman Begins treats Bruce’s war against crime as a personal battle rather than one stemming out of sacrifice. The Batman from the comicbooks would never sacrifice himself. And that's integral -- no -- of utmost importance to the Batman lore.

M: I think Nolan is trying to treat Batman as a symbol/legend in his story because movies have this limited expansion. Unlike comics, you can’t keep going with this character for decades. Sure, within different directors’ franchises maybe. But this is Nolan’s story and I think that’s why he’s trying to go for that theme.

M: See, Batman Begins was an origin story. They were aiming to create a strong base for the character and make people care for him. That’s why audience gets to spend more time with Bruce Wayne and get into his psyche before he dons cape and cowl and turns into a silent guardian of Gotham.What TDK does is that it tries to expand and escalate the Nolanverse Gotham that was created in Batman Begins and now, Batman is part of this world.. and now, we get to peek into Batman’s psyche. How, you ask? I think TDK is all about different characters’ ideas about The Caped Crusader in the movie. See, if you get 2 feet back from the screen and try to vision the whole story, you realize that behind Joker’s crazy psycho games and Two-Face’s vengeance arc, it’s all about Batman and subtly so!
Bruce thinks how Batman has no limits.

M: Alfred thinks how Batman is at the end of the day, just a human.
How Rachel thinks Batman is a forever need for Gotham and more than that, for Bruce.
How Dent thinks Batman was appointed by Gotham itself and a necessary icon for the city. 
How Joker thinks Batman is just a freak, just another side of his persona. “You complete me!”
How General Public and GCPD thinks Batman is just a vigilante, a criminal.
Heck! Even the Russian Ballerina tries to speak out her ideas about Batman.
And yes, not to mention, the epilogue by Gordon, which in my opinion is as Batman as it can get.
So it was all about Batman without having a scene where Batman says, “I AM BATMAN!” [laughs]

B: But all that is undone once the half the second act is over. All this happens way before Harvey dent’s arc takes a turn for the worse, and all this Batman/Bruce Wayne symbology/philosophy is completely undone because Bruce Wayne loses the little focus that was on him before. 

B: True, the epilogue is absolutely Batman in a nutshell, but doesn’t it feel like... y’know... it’s there to remind us that it’s a Batman film? TDK is much more of a Harvey Dent film than a Batman film, but what makes me angry is that it tries to be about Batman so badly, but most of the focus falls on Harvey Dent and all of the limelight on Joker. 
Batman Begins, on the other hand... It’s a Batman story. From the start to end, it’s a Batman film. The focus is on Bruce Wayne and his personal journey.

M: The Dark Knight just has so much to tell but I never felt that it lost focus from its soul wrapped beneath all these layers. Like I said before, BB was an origin story and obviously it was trying to be all about Batman. And that’s why it becomes less appealing when it comes to villains in Batman Begins. Ra’s and Scarecrow were great characters but still, you have to agree that they are there to only compliment Bruce’s psyche. 

Scarecrow was obviously chosen to make Bruce’s phobia stronger and Henri Ducard was chosen to resonate Bruce’s loss of a father while Joker has mysteriously electrifying chemistry with Batman. And for that, you do need to give your villain some moments to shine...
Despite of all that, I never felt that this villain was exploited or outshined Batman. He was there at and for, the right time.And how can it be undone, if it’s in the same film, in the same story? That’s why I said, even I required a few re-watches to get the complete idea of what was going on in the film. I still maintain it’s a Batman story at the heart of it, in which Joker and Harvey play very crucial part. 
Also, people complain how TDK doesn’t have as comic book-ish Gotham as it was in BB. Well, they forget that when we are introduced to Gotham in TDK, we are stepping into a world where Batman has become an icon and a fearful persona for evil. Narrows is lost. TDK tries to introduce the viewer to a much recognizable and ‘safer’ world, just to blow his/her senses by  a clown-faced man. I think it works!

B: It may work for the average movie goer, but for a hard core Batman fan like me (more on that later), who has been collecting comics since he was a wee kid, it just doesn’t work. See, it’s undone because the focus completely shifts. Before the Joker becomes a very prominent figure in Gotham, it’s a Batman movie, but then it’s a Harvey Dent film. 

B: Batman is the most grounded character in comic books, and he can fit into reality like a glove. Batman Begins managed to do that, yet keep the essence of the comic books intact. It felt like a Batman film. Dark Knight, on the other hand... it just didn’t feel like a Batman film to me. It felt more like a thriller than a Batman film, and I’m not looking at it from a comic book perspective, but a story perspective. 
It just doesn’t have the essence of a Batman film like Batman Begins, the animated show or Tim Burton's Bat-flicks.

M: See, Nolan’s Batman franchise is aiming to create a story that will make billions of people care about it while keeping them entertained and satisfied for their prices of admission. It’s a much tougher task, really. 
I always acknowledge Burton for his stylistic imagery. He has keen eye for creating aesthetic visuals but his take on Batman was just that. A beautiful, surreal Gotham to look at. So, question is what are you trying to look for in a film when you want it to be a “Batman film”? Are stylistic visuals like in the Burton films are enough to gain that title? [B: NO. I never-] 

M: Back to TDK, you see, I think we are missing the aim of Joker and Harvey Dent’s arc in TDK. Why are they given so much importance? I think, you can develop a character either objectively, as Batman’s character was in Batman Begins. Or subjectively, which is how Batman’s character develops in TDK. His actions are defining him but it’s the sum total of other characters’ actions in TDK which brings us to defining moment for Batman. The main theme of the film itself builds around the ideas and rules of Bruce Wayne/Batman. 
Is he the only one to protect the city? 
Can he pass his mantle to a hero with face like Dent? 
How long can he keep his rule of “Never Kill” sustained? 

M: Joker and Two Face are there, only to drive Batman’s character to a point of desperation, where he has no choice but to take the fall for Dent’s crimes and be hunted forever as a criminal. This is my idea of TDK. And there are plenty of other interpretations. It tries to leap beyond the boundaries of a “comic book film” or “Batman movie”, and becomes something much richer and complex. It is a Batman film. The reason you find it different from Batman Begins is, It is not ONLY a Batman film.

B: Hurm. Well, maybe you can view it as not only a Batman film, but for a lot of comic book fans like me (and Joss Whedon, blessed be his soul) The Dark Knight is definitely a Batman film, and one that doesn’t really succeed at becoming a Batman film. It’s an awesome as hell film, no doubt, but as a Batman film... it doesn’t fail, but it doesn’t succeed either.

M: Well, I guess, like all the discussions on the web world, this one also ends on the note that we agree to disagree. 
What we can agree on, though, is that we all are excited as hell for TDKR, aren’t we? What’s more exciting is that Nolan Bros. have said TDKR borrows best elements from Batman Begins and The Dark Knight, while still infusing the film with many fresh ideas. What do you say about that, Bob?

B: Nolan has said that he wouldn’t have made a third Batman film if it weren’t worth making. And I doubt he has lied to us. And from the trailers, The Dark Knight Rises looks more comic booky than the other Nolan films, eerily reminiscent of my favorite comic book The Dark Knight Returns. And at the same time, it looks as grounded as his other films. If that’s not a miracle, then I don’t know what is.
I’ve got no doubt that TDKR will be a great, great film. 
Who am I kidding? I'm shitting my pants. I think it'll be the greatest damn film of all time. I'm looking forward to placing it right next to Citizen Kane.

M: Citizen Kane and Godfather.

B: Godfather is overrated.

M: Shut up.

Bob is a Bombay based film buff, which is a nice way of saying that he is a jobless, lifeless basement dweller. 

Mahek has a blog here. He's a better writer than he admits to be. 

The Dark Knight Rises this friday.